God in Your Story
In my last post, The Truth of the Gospel, I shared my story of being saved from suicide and subsequently coming to faith. I also talked about how when I became a Christian, I realized that God was with me even in those horrible circumstances. I realize that many people share stories similar to my own, and many have stories of far worse things happening to them. It is very tempting to ask, either during or after, where God was in those times. While it may seem as though God abandoned you to be raped, beaten, neglected, depressed, empty, etc and chose to love others by blessing them with talent, good looks, money, opportunity, intelligence, friends etc, there is another question that my personal experience has lent me to ask:
Why wasn’t it worse?
Why wasn’t I molested?
Why wasn’t I cut on?
Left in a ditch for my parents to discover?
I said before that my still being alive is evidence of God’s work in my life, and it is, but all the evil things that didn’t happen to me are further evidence. Often in rotten circumstances, we can ask “Why didn’t God prevent this from happening?” If God prevented something from happenning, obviously we would never know about it. So let me ask again:
Why isn’t it worse?
Why isn’t genocide global?
Why isn’t everyone afflicted with AIDS?
Why isn’t everyone a self-styled Hitler?
Why is there any good in this world at all?
Why do we even have a word that describes something as “good”?
So my word of encouragement to you if you find yourself in trying circumstances and wonder “Where is God?” He may be far nearer to you than you know.
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- Aug 15, 2008: Word Arsenal « Nothing About This Is Broken
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Mike
what a slippery slope you are on. With your logic I have to ask where God was for the ones who did get worse than you, much, much worse. In fact what happens when all you get is crap and then youre dead, can you explain the Love of God in that?
John,
It could always be worse. Never forget that life itself is a gift.
“what a slippery slope you are on”
If hope is a slippery slope, than I absolutely hope to slide down that one till the day I die.
Mike
I love Hope. But trust me, for some it cant get any worse, only better. Remember in some families the choice was suicide! Personally I think God made up the format and then stepped back. To think that he comes into some lives because they pray the right prayer or something of that nature, doesnt sit well with me. We are safe because of the format, not because we “decide” to “accept” the format. Life is about growth, and pain is part of the process, unfortunately. We may be able to pray to God and derive some sense of peace from that, but for the most part it isnt going to change the direction of the bullet.
I just finished watching the Children of God documentary – and some of those kids had it really rough (beatings, molestation, pedophilia, incest, neglect, etc)…all in the name of God.
I was quite amazed to hear some of those kids say that was where God wanted them to be. I didn’t like that very much – because I am not sure that is where God wanted them – at least – not to have those afflictions I am sure. A few of them ended up committing suicide due to the emotional and mental fatigue from their child-hood years and neglect from parents after leaving (wanted nothing to do with them). Is this what God wanted for them?
I had a rough child-hood and could even sympathize with those kids and their personal struggles – with family and with faith (gone wrong). I realize that what happens in childhood effects a person’s core being so deeply it is hard to remove the pain from reality. Heck, I struggle with things from childhood to some degree still to this day – and that was all many years ago now. Childhood memories give us turmoil to unwrap – and some can – and some cannot.
I just don’t like the idea ‘that was the place God wanted these kids to be’ (Mike did not say this – but I am borrowing a line I have heard a few times in Christian circles). Cause if this is so, then that is one cruel God in some ways. These kids were used as their parents saw fit – in a faith that allowed them this leniency. It has me asking – what God was there even in the faith these kids existed in? Those parents did all they could to remove the actual representation of God to these kids – with their behaviour.
These kids were left to the wolves – and there was no God to save them. Because the representatives they had for God – had left that God a long time ago when they started following a self styled guru named David Berg who replaced the ‘good news’ with his own ‘news’. Those parents are culpable for their implicit actions of obedience to this guru. All I can do is feel the pain of these kids – who had their guardians misrepresent God…blurring lines for them…even reality.
These kids had it really really bad. Could it of been worse – maybe – but it was horrendous enough in my opinion. I cannot think that ‘it could have been worse’ – cause yes they could have been killed or something – but they have to live with memories that scar and that’s even tougher.
It’s not really helpful to move to imaginary grounds with topics like this – like what might of happened or this is what God wanted…those will not suffice for the one in the painful scenarios. What needs to be acknowledged is they were kids (not to blame) – and the actual responsibility falls on the parents for their actions (they should of knew better and did not). That’s the best a kid can get in my opinion – unless we see actual repentance from a parent.
John t.
“To think that he comes into some lives because they pray the right prayer or something of that nature, doesnt sit well with me.”
I think that I am describing something different than you think I am. I never said God was at work preventing things from being worse because of prayer. Actually, God declares in Gen 8:21-22 that He will bless all mankind by causing the rain to fall on the crops of the wicked as well as the crops of the righteous. In Calvinism, this is referred to as God’s Common Grace, and He gives it regardless of a person’s heart. This Common Grace is much more limited in extent than Salvific Grace, but it is given to all.
SocietyVs,
I appreciate the discussion that you raise in the first half of your comment. Our interpretation of our sufferings is an implication of this discussion, but is one that is tangential at this point. I would love to address it in another article, but I am still working on the Psalm 110 article I promise you about 2 months ago (I hope you are still interested!)
I did however want to address the last half of your comment which related to the current discussion. You make the point that it is usually a fruitless endeavor to argue about things that didnt happen. In most circumstances, I would agree with you. In this instance however, this principle finds feet when people question God’s goodness amidst trying circumstances. In other words, when someone asks why God let something happen, if He did not let it happen, you would never know.
I was involved in a horrific car accident about 3 years ago that involved a drunk driver going the wrong way down a divided highway. 45 of my friends could have been killed (and according to the highway patrolmen and EMTs, everyone should have been killed). I went to the hospital with several of my friends injured in the crash, and one of them kept asking why God would let that happen? I looked her straight in the eyes and told her that what happened was tragic, but I praise God that everyone should have died and no one did, not even the drunk driver. To me that showed God’s hand in that specific instance.
Ultimately, even if we cant conceive of one possible benefit from the suffering I or anyone else has endured, it doesnt mean that God’s ability to work is hindered by our imagination.
“In other words, when someone asks why God let something happen, if He did not let it happen, you would never know” (Mike)
Why does God have to let it happen in the first place? Isn’t human decision involved in the whole human being process? Why don’t humans lay responsibility where it is due - at the person who makes the horrible decision to hurt another. God can come in on the mercy part - but I would not say God ‘did or didn’t allow something to happen’ - since He doesn’t appear to be working in this world in that manner.
“Ultimately, even if we cant conceive of one possible benefit from the suffering I or anyone else has endured, it doesnt mean that God’s ability to work is hindered by our imagination” (Mike)
That may be so…but suffering is one of those things we seek knowledge about (thus the questions). There are benefits of growth to suffering - but what shape that growth takes is interesting.
Let me tell a story - something like yours.
I had a brother who had cancer - and was in the prime of his life (25). He ended up staying with me near the end of his life - taking chemo now and then - but always sick as a dog. He was not a Christian person - but in his suffering he went to church to ask for healing (a huge step for him). Nothing happened - he died at 25.
I was shocked, up to that point my faith was healing was something that would work (I had been healed after all). But in this case, it did not and someone I loved died. That day my faith changed…in my opinion…for the better.
Now I take every moment with someone as important - and namely when they are near death - I don’t pretend prayer is going to work (it very well may not) - so I am not going to waste my time hoping - when they need someone with them. That was the lesson I learned about my brother - whom I let down in some way, shape, or form. I wasn’t there for him - I was very nieve about the power of prayer/healing.
But that was a moment of suffering that turned out to change my life - but not in a way the church would want it changed - but in the way it needed to change. Is God in there somewhere? If so, why push me in this direction and not in the Benny Hinn direction? Food for thought.
SocietyVs,
Again, you raise some very good points and add personal story that gives practical feet with the discussion. Just a couple of things.
“If so, why push me in this direction and not in the Benny Hinn direction?”
Well, I would say because Benny Hinn has no idea what he is talking about, but that is probably not what what you meant with that question.
I dont pretend to know what I cant, like understanding why God allows some people healing and denies it to others. What I can tell you is that the early Christian church was left with the same questions. In Acts 12, we see how Peter is miraculously saved but James is put to the sword. Why did one of the apostles suffer martyrdom at this time while the other was freed? The Christian is simply left to trust that God knows, and that is enough.
“The Christian is simply left to trust that God knows, and that is enough.” (Mike)
Not if the Christian believes there is a ‘reason for everything’ - which is kind of what this whole topic is about in the blog. Suffering finds meaning somewhere in God.
So I am left to decipher what this could all mean in this scenario and what it is to teach me. I kind of think that way - maybe things can teach me something I did not knoew before. All I know is losing someone close to you hurts and makes you face mortality (maybe that is a good consequence).
But it also made me realize my faith in God was somewhat - young and needed maturity. I began a road of questioning after that incident that hasn’t stopped even until this day. I will not accept much things at face value without some good explanation. There is good and bad inherent in that - I can doubt a little much - but I can also question to greater quests of the truth.
I am seeking for answers of all things now - and I cannot accept something I am told is ‘true’ until i know it really is. I can accept the idea holds some truth - but what is at an ideas heart? That is how I quest these days.
“Not if the Christian believes there is a ‘reason for everything’ - which is kind of what this whole topic is about in the blog. Suffering finds meaning somewhere in God.”
Absolutely. But what I am saying is while God has a reason, it is not always supposed to be understood by us.
“To think that he comes into some lives because they pray the right prayer or something of that nature, doesnt sit well with me. We are safe because of the format, not because we “decide” to “accept” the format. Life is about growth, and pain is part of the process, unfortunately. We may be able to pray to God and derive some sense of peace from that, but for the most part it isnt going to change the direction of the bullet.” (John T)
The problem of evil, of suicide, of hate, in short, the problem of sin should never be misplaced and noted as the static problem of a “format.” I sympathize with such a worldview, it’s just that it has nothing to do with the redemption of Christ, nor does it presuppose any use of the Word of God. The problem of evil is not the problem. It is the problem of good that is the problem.
If we are not involved in the process of God, partnering in His redemption, in the unfolding of His stories, His dreams, we are masquerading, making a cheap trick of ourselves, bankrupt for the illusions of Satan.
I believe in the power of prayer because God, in His compelling and redeeming work in the hearts of men, demands such awareness. I pray that we could partner with Him in taking care of all the sheep in this world, of taking care of one another, of loving one another…in other words, I pray that we live the life of the redeemed.
Of course there is no secret password that initiates regeneration…it takes humility and sincerity of heart. We pray for these deeply, and we begin to recognize that the experience of Christ is a miracle, is cause for jubilation, is cause to celebrate the efficacy of prayer.
Don’t stop believin’!
lovings..
I just read the rest of the blogging responses, having missed a couple at the top.
I was sitting next to Mike during that accident (having a conversation about the philosophy of time, if I remember correctly, and being amazed by some of the things my friend was saying) and it was a miracle.
I hesitate to mention it, Mike, because I’m sure like you, it can be recalled and replayed in an instant. I merely want to testify to the fact that I have never seen something so horrific not end in a single fatality. I am a skeptical guy, but I tell you that what I experienced that morning was divine intervention…
“But what I am saying is while God has a reason, it is not always supposed to be understood by us.” (Mike)
So God would rather we remain ignorant to the what we are being taught in suffering?
It makes no sense to say God would not want us to know - because irregardless we are going to move forward from the event with some type of perspective. So apart from God (I hope not) we are going to develop i our faith and learning from the suffering.
I am just not sure we will understand the fulness of the mystery of what we are learning (as in truth takes time to figure out) - but we start that process almost immediately after the tragic event.
Mike and Chris
I thank you for your ideas, even though I disagree. I believe prayer is for us internally, not what we wish for externally. I believe its purpose is to help change our perspective, not desires.
My brother committed suicide, he took pills at a troubled time in his life, he then told my grandmother what he had done. We had him at the hospital in plenty of time to save his life, but the physicians gave him medication that was contra indicated and he got worse. He was revived several times through the night and at one point with my mother holding him, stated that, “mom, I dont want to die”. He died shortly after. Consequence of his actions, they were extreme. No amount of prayer could save him, God did not intervene. I believe thats because God doesnt pick and choose, he leaves us to our own devices. That has nothing to do with our eternity, but everything to do with the here and now. You can quote scripture, you can say what you think God is doing in your life, I understand the benefit you get from those ideas. Those beliefs do nothing for the dead from a physical perspective, they only placate the living.
I find it incredibly arrogant to go around pretending that we can see any god’s will in our lives, unless you believe that we can become like gods ourselves.
Even the very wise cannot see all ends. Which is, I suppose, really what you are saying, Mike.
Did you know that John Wilkes Booth himself saved Robert Lincoln’s life the day Booth assassinated Abraham Lincoln? Booth was standing at a train platform, Robert fell onto the tracks, and here comes a train, about to kill Robert. Booth pulled Robert up in time. They did not realize at the moment who the other person was. Later that night, Booth killed robert’s father.
There is no explanation to “WHY?!” there until we start putting out human ideas into the mix.
Kyle,
To defend Mike, I don’t think it is arrogant to presuppose that God’s wisdom is beyond ours and thus all bets on a thoroughly convincing theodicy are, in turn, beyond us. However, in affirming orthodox principles (the omnipotence, omniscience, divine foreknowledge, etc.) of God, often times people scoff at the lack of relevance/translation of such lofty claims to personal experience (such is the case with John’s story, for instance). Let us take each other where we stand; John, I sympathize with your view that prayer conditions the heart and deepens us, taking us into our true inner selves, however neglecting the possibility of God’s intervention is always going to be met with disagreement in orthodox circles.
However, according to process theology, you are on to something. In fact, the problem of suffering through the lens of process is more accurately the problem of the lack of healing and comfort, the lack of compassion and awareness. In short, the problem of evil is the problem of acedia, indifference, the tragedy of a world which refuses to pray.
Depending on how far you take this (and this is where process gets a bit far out for me) prayer includes willing the movement of each and every molecule, the shrinking of every cancerous cell, etc. There is a spiritual and physiological response…
But faced with the enormity of what we’re discussing, I would echo the prudence of, “What the heck do we know, anyway?”
I apologize, chris, but I don’t think I understand even a third of what you are saying, there.
I wasn’t attacking Mike at all. I’m agreeing with his notion that there are always more questions to ask about a god’s will, questions beyond the initial ones we allow to suffice as answers so we can feel sorry or special or whatever we want to feel.
There is no explanation to “WHY?!” there until we start putting out human ideas into the mix.(Kyle)
The only ideas out there come from Humans, the truth of the matter is that even God is a Human idea.
Hey everyone,
I kinda took the day off yesterday and missed some of the discussion, so I will pick up where it left off.
John T.
“the truth of the matter is that even God is a Human idea”
A rock would be a rock whether or not a human thought so, Myanmar would be there regardless of humans thinking of it, and a rose by any other name would smell as sweetly. There is a difference between human recognition and human innovation. If you had human recognition in mind when you said “God is a human idea” I completely agree, but if you had human innovation when you said that, I completely disagree.
Saturday I was thrown into one of those where is God situation. Due to circumstances beyond my control I lost my job as a manager of a Christian bookstore, long story but the suddenly had to close immediately. It has been very frustrating few days. I’m am struggling to understand why God would allow me to loose a job I was good at and actually enjoyed.
“I’m am struggling to understand why God would allow me to loose a job I was good at and actually enjoyed.” (Dee)
That’s the thing - I am not sure there is an answer until this is all looked at with such an internal looking at the situation. Answers will not come easy (seek and we will find).
I also believe the way things function - I am not sure God is to blame. Things happen in life - people lose jobs - marriages dissolve - and when we are at our whims’ end - we turn to God for answers. But I am not sure God is the one to blame for closing a store down. There are likely a lot of other possible solutions - and I think they need to be looked at also.
Sorry for the loss of the job - I hope you find another that will fill the void.
DZ,
It has been a while! Good to have you back, but I am sorry to hear the news about your job.
All I can say is to repeat God’s promise through Joseph in Genesis 50:20. It will work out for His glory my friend, even if it doesnt feel like it. I am in the midst of a lot of stuff myself, and it is hard to cling to that promise, but it is there.